I’d like to introduce you to Carol Ross Edmonston. Back in the 1990’s she developed a creative drawing method she calls Sacred Doodling. Her method is seriously close to the method Rick and Maria claim as their own. I mean SERIOUSLY close. Like the meat and potatoes of the creative process is exactly the same.
Carol is actually the original designer for the creative process many people now refer to as Zentangling. Oh no, she’s not the one that came up with the zingy company name or the business plan to market the heck out of it. But she is the one who first wrote about and taught the drawing method, as well as some of the meditative and wellness theory that goes along with it.
Carols Sacred Doodle teachings and drawing method includes the following:
- Drawing a guideline/string that has open spaces in it.
- Filling in those open spaces with repeated patterns.
- Maintaining a mindfulness mental state of focus or “being present” while drawing.
- Allowing for your art to develop with no expectations of what the end product will look like.
- Recognizing that art has similarities to life – in that there are no mistakes, only opportunities.
- Appreciating the final piece of abstract art – that is usually created in 15 minutes.
Any of that sound familiar to you? It should! Rick and Maria’s drawing method has all the same characteristics as Carols products.
By the way, besides Rick and Maria – I’m not the only other one who knows Carol is the original author of this creative process. Our U.S. Patent Office reviewers see it too. Their findings of Carols work isn’t the only reason they have been denying the patent application for Rick and Maria’s “teaching method and kit for abstract pattern drawing” invention. But it’s one of the strongest reasons they’ve used during the 13 years the patent application has been processing. Despite the many rebuttal letters Rick and Maria have submitted to the U.S. Patent office – thus far they haven’t been able to convince the reviewers they have a unique invention that isn’t a copycat of Carols methods.
Is it Coincidental? Maybe.
Back to my introduction of Carol… After realizing the health benefits from this mindful drawing practice, Carol began teaching her methods. She published books on the subject. Taught the method in schools and hospitals. She and her works were written about in several high profile periodicals. And news sources interviewed and wrote about her. Carols teachings and creative works were public knowledge long before Rick and Maria claimed to have come up with their methods in 2003.
I have a couple of Carol’s books. In 2000, she wrote the book titled Connections, The Sacred Journey Between Two Points – One Women’s Spiritual Adventure Through Breast Cancer. My copy of this book has the pages falling out because I’ve referred to it so often.
In the Introduction of her book she tells the back story of meeting a great meditation master. Carol then tells us a little about her own meditation practices. Here’s one of the statements in this section of her book, “… I have learned to look within, and to trust and have faith in the journey itself”. Coincidentally the Zentangle® story has a direct connection to Rick’s meditation practices and they have taught students of their drawing method to “…take it one stroke at a time, and trust in the journey”. Not an earth shattering coincident on it’s own. However, a few more quotes from Carol’s book that may sound to you, suspiciously similar to what’s taught through in the Zentangle® drawing method:
- “As the outline for each drawing was being created with one single movement of the pen, I was learning how to trust in the process and have faith that I would be guided to create a perfect design. And I always was!”
- “[no matter how the finished product looked]…. they were all unique and perfect, just the way they were. There were no mistakes!”
- “This was the beginning of a magical time for me and I began to see the correlation between this art form and life itself… for both are about immersing oneself in a journey…”
- “[In life]… There are no wrong turns.”
- “Remember, this art form is about freedom. There are no rules!”
- “I am constantly reminded that everything is just how it should be… there are no mistakes. Life can be such a magical journey!”
There are more quotes I could share. But I think you get the idea here. There’s a resounding theme in her work that coincides with the Zentangle® teachings. Specifically, how they both correlate their creative process with life events – claiming there are no mistakes, no rules, no wrong turns, and the student is to trust in the creative journey.
My point isn’t that the words are or are not exactly the same. My point is that the words they use along side the creative theme, follow the exact same pathway. A coincident? Maybe. But then again… maybe not.
Abstract Strings and Repetition
Let’s say for the sake of argument that Rick, Maria, and Carol just happen to think along the same lines with theories of life events and creative processes having correlations with each other. I mean really that could happen…. especially since they also have a similar meditation practice background. And maybe the teachings of their meditative practices are similar. Religious beliefs often have similar threads of thought. So yeah…. maybe, just maybe, they teach the same “Zen” theories as each other… I suppose that could happen.
But then I compare the art that results from their drawing processes. What do we see? Well, here again, the similarities are obvious. Here’s a picture of her art on a CD cover I have and a picture on the book I mentioned above.. Inside this book are many more examples of her art work. What I’ve seen in her open string-sections are several of the exact same patterns that have come out of Zentangle® HQ. And by several I mean a lot. More than 20 patterns show up.
Of course so many of the patterns in our art have been around for thousands of years and anyone can recreate them. But then I read the statements in their patent application rebuttals where they argue that they use different types of repetitive patterns that Carol doesn’t use. With over 20 of the same patterns between them – how can they say that her art is different and doesn’t include the same type pattern work? It’s no wonder to me that the patent office isn’t accepting those rebuttals as factual.
There’s just no way there are that many accidental similarities. They both have a Zen meditation back ground. They both use some of the same theories on life and art connections. They both use the same verbiage in their writing. All of Carols creative processes are included in Rick and Maria’s. The abstract art is very much of the same style. Coincidental? No. I don’t believe it’s coincidence.
Making it Their Own
What I think is very apparent here, is that Rick and Maria took a great creative process and tweaked it a little bit. Then built a business around it. That’s perfectly legal. Even the similarities in the words they use don’t equate to copyright infringement. Businesses do this all the time. Think about how many different rubber stamp companies there are or how many different companies sell decorative papers for card making/scrapbooking. The same is true in just about every industry or for any product you can think of.
Rick and Maria are saavy business owners. Kudos to them for having those skill sets and the resources to follow their business endeavors to the level of success they’ve accomplished thus far. I can not deny them that. I think it’s great when people can create a successful business based on their artistic interests.
I suppose they might be nice enough people. Certainly they have a large following. But I have an issue with the way they handled a recent business matter. When someone used the same creative process and tweaked it even further and also began building a business around it…. they squawked. They posted a scathing blog post about how someone else stole their information property. Seriously?
She didn’t steal their information! What she did (and continues) to do, is she enhances the basic creative patterning methods wonderfully. Far beyond anything Zentangle®, Inc. has done. And she’s done it all without infringing on their copy rights.
What really gets me fired up is that they are smart enough to know the information they fed to their blog readers about copyright infringement was not true infringement! I’m amazed to see the number of people leaving comments on that “Seriously” article, that accept the blog posting as truth. I haven’t figured out if so many of these people don’t do their research before speaking out because they don’t care to find out the truth, or if they follow along because of herd mentality. It really baffles the mind sometimes.
Here’s the thing – just because Rick and Maria say (or insinuate) that something is true that doesn’t necessarily make it true. They try to convince people that they invented their teaching/drawing method. Proof shows they didn’t invent it. Carol did, and then took a different business path than they did. They try to convince people that Ina infringed on their copy rights. She hasn’t done that. They have no copy rights to the drawing methods they teach.
Seriously – Don’t be fooled!
They spin a story. People believe them. And to me, it’s a sad thing that people are so gullible and easily mislead.
Whether you’re a business person in the repeat pattern art field or a hobbyist – don’t just follow along with the Zentangle® stories blindly. Learn the facts. Look for info and start forming your own opinion instead of adopting that of others, this is some of what you may learn:
- Neither teaching methods nor drawing techniques are copyrightable. Words and short phrases are not copyrightable either. Plus the content they shared in their “Seriously” blog post isn’t enough to be considered infringing on their previous works. The so called “proof” Rick and Maria provided to their audience doesn’t prove copyright infringement at all. They just wanted you to believe it did.
- The business model of recruiting and training reps to teach art-making methods or to buy/sell your products is not a copyrightable, nor a patentable business model. Anyone can legally do that. Many, many companies do! Telling someone to stop recruiting and training other people on how to teach a creative method – well, it’s just a stupid thing to do- like bullying always is. With the CZT® Program, Rick and Maria are Following a proven business model. Just like other companies have. And they have no legal footing for stopping someone else from doing the same thing.
- Their training/drawing methods are not covered by copyright laws, not trademark laws, and thus far they haven’t proved patentable either. There are several reasons it hasn’t been patented yet. The fact that it’s not their original invention is just one of the reasons. Whether they ever see a patent get approved or not, the patent does not now (nor will it ever) prevent anyone else from legally teaching drawing methods using repetitive patterning. Even if those methods are seriously close to their (claimed) original method – the Zentangle® company can’t stop anyone from teaching repeat pattern art, abstract art, or any combination of the two.
- If you want to buy their products wholesale, or contract with them to resale their products, or you want to teach using their exact same methods – then by all means, get certified by Zentangle® , Inc to do so. But certification from their company is not required for you to teach patterning using your own teaching methods – even if your methods include strings and repetitive pattern markings.
- The intellectual property that the Zentangle® company has protection on at this time, are their copyrightable products, and their trademark related products. And yes – there are situations that allow for you to use their trademarks and their copyrighted materials too.
Do Your Homework!
If you happen to still be reading this and you’re a certified rep for Zentangle, Inc – before you get all defensive on me stop and take a breath. If you haven’t looked into it yet and you’ve already started taking sides or making even more false accusations – then shame on you for just blindly accepting false claims as facts. I understand that you feel like you have a personal relationship with Rick and Maria. I understand your loyalty to the company you represent. But neither of those things excuse you from educating yourself about copyrights and infringements, or the history of the company you associate yourself with.
If on the other hand you researched what’s copyrightable and what isn’t and you’ve learned what constitutes infringement and what doesn’t – then you already know exactly what I’m talking about. Congratulations for doing your homework. I admire you for taking the time to learn and form your own opinion. Even if your opinion differs from mine I respect you and hope that you will offer me the same.
Check Out Carols Work
You can learn more about Carols story and her stringed abstract art works completed with repetitive patterns; and pick up her books, or learn of her workshops at her Sacred Doodles Website.
Check Out Ina’s Work
You can learn more about the many drawing options in the Creative Pattern Tangling Drawing/teaching methods that encompasses Ina’s work by looking at the training resources she’s posted at Pattern-Collections.com
Check Out Zentangle, Inc.
You can learn more about the Zentangle® drawing method at Zentangle.com.
Check Out Copyright Info
You can learn more about what’s copyrightable and what’s not by visiting the official US Copyright Office website
Check Out Patent Info
You can learn more about patent requirements at the official US Patent and Trademark Office website
You can get copies of the patent application and associated documents for the Zentangle® methods by using the Public Pair site. The patent application number that you’ll need is: 11/229,928
Cheers,
~ Cindy
Gosh! I started doing ‘zenart’ (just to be in the safe side) in December 2014 (I was in one of the lowest point of my life), started to do mandala and then ‘zendoodle’ till April 2018 when I had a problem with my right shoulder. I stopped visiting zenart/zendoodle sites all together during the recovery process and just started to join in the community back last month for Inktober festivity.
I happened to read those nasty comments from ‘zenthought’ and reading your post has put my zen back :-), although it happened in mid 2018, I was still a bit shaken by bullying comments from the zen practitioners. I am glad I was in the cave during the turbulence and returning in the peace time 🙂
I do hope that Rick & Maria will still have blossoming business and Ina have successful CPT’s venture and I will now confidently can share my zenart aka doodling without the need to worry about crossing copyright’s issues
Oh my gosh, thank you. I’ve thought this but didn’t have the educated proof that you have. I simply adore CPT, their attitudes, encouragement and just the whole set up they have, it’s wonderful. Before knowing any of this drama the zentangle people created, I steered away from them. The attitude just felt wrong.
Thank you for standing up, voicing it and showing irrefutable proof.
My problem with CPT is that there’s an undercurrent of hostility and negativity surrounding it. Seems like a lot of the louder voices defending CPT are more interested in picking a fight and acting superior to people than they are actually drawing. The negative comments from the “Seriously?” blog post and the following paragraph from this blog illustrate my point perfectly:
“But they also know that their tribe will believe just about anything they feed them. I’m amazed to see the number of people leaving comments on that “Seriously” article, that accept the blog posting as truth. I haven’t figured out if so many of these people don’t do their research before speaking out because they don’t care to find out the truth, or if they follow along because of herd mentality. Maybe they will just agree with anything Rick and Maria say irregardless of truth in the matter? It really baffles the mind sometimes.”
Cindy, you could have made all the above points about Zentangle vs. CPT vs. Sacred Doodles WITHOUT insulting Zentangle fans. But you just had to throw that jab in there. Why? You already laid out a well-researched argument. The insults add nothing, only detracts. Seems like the only reason it was added was for your own personal satisfaction, which is disappointing coming from someone claiming to be a coach and seeking spiritual growth.
This negativity is exactly why I’ve stopped visiting the CPT Facebook group and other associated websites. This preference is NOT because of “herd mentality.” It’s NOT for “lack of research.” It’s entirely because of the underlying hostility coming from certain members of the CPT community. I genuinely don’t care what method people prefer to support—Zentangle, CPT, Sacred Doodles, whatever—but don’t insult people who prefer different things.
Carly, thank you for your comments. I understand your concern about my “jab” and I’ve taken this to heart. Maybe I was too harsh and self serving in my words. I apologize for offending you and anyone else who may feel similarly.
Another Point of False Claims: In the recent “Seriously-Updated” blog post at Zentangle.com, a post script was added on ** Aug 3, 2018. The authors say that this blog posting (that you’re reading now), insinuated and accused Zentangle, Inc. of plagiarizing Carol Edmonston’s work. I did not do that. What I did say is:
— “Rick and Maria’s drawing method has all the same characteristics as Carols products.”
–“My point isn’t that the words are or are not exactly the same. My point is that the words they use along side the creative theme, follow the exact same pathway. A coincident? Maybe. But then again… maybe not.”
–“What I’ve seen in her open string-sections are several of the exact same patterns that have come out of Zentangle® HQ. And by several I mean a lot. More than 20 patterns show up. Of course so many of the patterns in our art have been around for thousands of years and anyone can recreate them. ”
–“Here’s the thing – just because Rick and Maria say (or insinuate) that something is true that doesn’t necessarily make it true. They try to convince people that they invented their teaching/drawing method. Proof shows they didn’t invent it. Carol did, and then took a different business path than they did. They try to convince people that Ina infringed on their copy rights. She hasn’t done that. They have no copy rights to the drawing methods they teach. Seriously – Don’t be fooled! They spin a story. People believe them. And to me, it’s a sad thing that people are so gullible and easily mislead.”
— “Rick and Maria took a great creative process and tweaked it a little bit. Then built a business around it. That’s perfectly legal. ”
— “Rick and Maria are saavy business owners. Kudos to them for having those skill sets and the resources to follow their business endeavors to the level of success they’ve accomplished thus far. I can not deny them that. I think it’s great when people can create a successful business based on their artistic interests.”
————–
In reference to Carol’s comment on my blog: She did indicate that she connected with the Zentangle, Inc couple and found them to be pleasant people. She also indicated that she, herself, did not feel like their process was the same as hers. In her comment she shared with my readers her creative methods. And that explanation confirmed my statement about how her method is seriously close to the method Rick and Maria claim as their own. Rick and Maria said as much in their “Seriously-Updated” blog post too when they mentioned signing a disclosure statement to that affect years ago. I was glad she took the time to give details on her methods. I was glad Rick and Maria took the time to tell their audience that they knew their work was comparative to hers. I’m glad the U.S. Patent office is also forcing them to put more space between their method and hers.
Seems we all agree that the Zentangle® method and Carol’s earlier methods are not exactly the same, but both have many similarities.
————–
In spite of the good work Zentangle, Inc has accomplished with their creativity through their business, they seem to still be repeating the habit of saying false things about other people on their public blog. This time their lie is about me when they said that I insinuated and accused Zentangle, Inc. of plagiarizing Carol’s work.
In this blog posting I offered information showing that they were aware of her work for several years now and they still tell the story that they are the originators of this “…easy-to-learn, relaxing, and fun way to create beautiful images by drawing structured patterns”. And that they never gave credit to her for the original idea. Although some may not like that this truth was made public – no one denied it.
I’ll say it again – they are smart enough to know that their audience will except their word as truth even when it isn’t. Whether they are talking about their humble beginnings story, falsely claiming copyright infringement, or telling people I made a statement of plagiarism, that I never made – some will follow comfortably with a blindfold over their eyes. To me – it is sad that they use people that way. My hope is that they will correct the practice of deliberately making false claims against people. It continues to tarnish the “zen” reputation they have worked so hard to build their business around. A person does not need to create false claims in order to build their business or protect intellectual property that was never infringed upon to begin with.
I shake my head and roll my eyes.
But as my husband would say…. Chin up – football season is starting. Toss out the yellow flag and call foul on the play!
~Cindy
I just attended the 31st Certified Zentangle (R) Teachers Seminar this past July…Rest assured, my cost was around $ 2,500 CAD; however, these funds did not all end up in the profit margin of Zentangle.. This fee included the cost of the hotel stay (3 nights) plus ALL food and ALL supplies required to participate…I think it was a pretty good deal…Aside from that, you really can’t beat the opportunity of meeting like-interested individuals from around the world and sharing such a fabulous experience. I had the opportunity to spend some personal time with Rick and Maria. They are both amazing and have the most wonderful energy…YES, I did become aware of their business practices in how they run their organisation a year ago..But here’s the thing…What’s wrong with turning a profit from your innovation and energy spent ???
Also, no one (as far as I know) has mentioned another master tangler, Eni Oken..Now, her art concepts go beyond the original concept of Rick and Maria’s. Eni has developed a whole new universe of 3D Zentangle art that is beautiful. She runs a business and seems to be in good standing in the community. Just a note, she has been in the art business for 30 years and is also a Certified Zentangle Teacher (CZT) !!!
I wouldn’t have missed this opportunity for anything….So happy ! 🙂✏✏
Hi Sharon, Thank you for stopping in. I’m not sure how your comment relates to this blog posting. There’s really nothing here about CZT training costs or about profiting from art related businesses. But maybe your info will help anyone who was curious about that. So thanks for sharing the info. Sounds to me like the cost of your training was well worth it to you.
To answer your question about turning a profit – I don’t see anything wrong with turning a profit from your innovation and energy spent. Not sure what prompted you to ask me that question. Certainly, I wish you well. And the same for anyone else who makes money from their art interests. Including Eni, whom I have purchased from on many occasions to include purchasing a class from her just last week. I applaud you for accomplishing your CZT achievement. Congratulations! ~ Cindy
actually Eni Oken e-book Magic moments is almost exactly as the Zentangle Primer 1…I know I’ve bought both of them
Hi Pamela, Thanks for dropping in. That’s interesting info to learn. Have a great day! 😀
I am a Certified CPT Trainer. As someone who does not believe in meditation (the way it is presented in Zentangle) I was very happy to find Pattern Collections. In the process of learning about repetitive patterning, I found that I could create my own ideas and see them through to an end. So much so in fact, I have been able to submit and see my patterns on the web-site.
I have not begun training others yet. But I have no problem “paying” Ina if I use her work. She needs some compensation for it. It sure it much cheaper and more rewarding then to have a pay a ton at the outset, especially while on a limited income.
I have learned so much from this article. Thank you for writing it.
Hi Donna, good to see you here. I’m glad you found the posting helpful. Thanks for stopping in. Have a great day! ~Cindy
I also wanted to add that there is a big misconception about what people say they can afford to practice. While the training is cost up front for Zentangle , there is no financial requirement or obligation in any way going forward for a person. There is also a big discount in the purchase of supplies once certified as you know. In the pattern-collections business model, while the initial fee is low, there is an ongoing requirement to keep track of every single person you train to make sure you pay a portion of the fee you collect to Ina personally. Ive done the math and reviewed the ongoing commitments of both, i suggest everyone else do the same. I also am grateful to the Foundation that has been set by Zentengle to help those in financial need as well as fund research backed initials to support the benefits gained in this art form which is a strong commitment to give back to the community
WARNING TO READERS: This l-o-n-g comment response has little to do with the above blog posting. It’s just me spilling my thoughts about the CPT and CZT® training programs in response to Matts thoughts. 😀 Skip if you aren’t interested in that.
Hey there Matt,
I can’t say I completely grasp all that you are talking about in your last comment. So I’m not sure that my reply will make much sense. LOL What I’m gathering from your thoughts are a comparison between the business models practiced by the Zentangle, Inc company and the Pattern-Collections business model – as it relates to their train-the-trainer type programs?
I can’t speak fully on either of their complete business models as I’m not in partnership with either of them. But I will gladly share my opinions.
It’s my understanding that the upfront investment is what people perceive as high for one and low for the other. That seems to go along with the usual in this area, as the Zentangle® CZT® model is marketed as a premium product, it makes sense that theirs would be a higher cost. Premium products always cost higher than norm. That’s part of what makes them premium in the market place. Also the delivery of their product is physical and that almost always has higher costs associated with it – both for the company as well as for their customers. The Pattern-Collections CPT model is delivered virtually and is not marketed as a premium product.
Note that premium product and quality product are not the same thing. There are many high quality products sold at less than premium prices.
As you mentioned too, I do believe there is an additional financial benefit to the CZT® reps in that they have a set of products they can purchase at a discounted price and have some rights to resell them as well. Which offers a different ROI opportunity for the CZT® group than is available to the CPT® group. At this time the CPT folks don’t have any product offerings to purchase at discounted prices and then financially benefit from selling to customers.
The CPT program was just recently launched and is still in the development stages. The CZT® program has been around for many years and has a strong footing on their business model.
Yes – I agree with you, their foundation to provide financial support and research seems to be a worthy cause. FYI: Many times, research projects are launched and data results are gathered in an effort to support pending patent applications and to increase the value of a company. Luckily, when the results are not biased, they usually provide helpful information to the public in other ways too! So I am grateful to companies that have the financial means and the connections to have such research accomplished and published. I look forward to seeing what comes out of the studies Zentangle, Inc may be supporting.
I do not know your full understanding of the CPT model. You appear to have a misunderstanding about a CPT program requirement to track trained clients and then making client-based payments back to Ina Sonnenmoser? There is no such requirement. I believe the confusion originated from the “seriously” blog posting at Zentangle.com. The information they shared on this issue was taken out of context and did not clearly state how that part of the program works. This is/was part of the misinformation fed to the public inappropriately and it simply isn’t true. You may need to research that piece further to gain more clarification. Maybe Ina will weigh in here and educate the public. I leave that up to her.
From where I sit, I think the CZT® and the CPT products have different audiences. The drawing methods appear to be significantly different with the Zentangle® method being a basic method, designed for anyone who wants to experience a relaxed state of mind while increasing their sense of creativity, drawing abstract art. Conversely, the Pattern-Collections method promotes a less basic method, designed for anyone who wants to experience the mindful state of flow, while building their patterning skills to a different/higher skill levels, drawing in any art style they are attracted to.
Another difference I see between the two, seems to be in the ongoing financial support for their respective businesses. CZT® wholesale buying opportunities offer continued financial growth to Zentangle, Inc. As mentioned above CPT’s do not (at this time) have any wholesale buying opportunities.
Both programs seem to share a string of thought that involves empowering people to teach repeat pattern art drawing methods. They just go about it differently.
Those are my thoughts on comparing the two training programs. I’m not sure that adds much to the conversation in my blog post about Carol. I really just shared this with you to respond to your comments. Hope that makes sense.
Thank you for sharing. ~Cindy
Hi Cindy,
Can you please explain how the information regarding the “Money Money Money” section of Ina’s CPT Coaching guide was taken out of context in Rick and Maria’s blog “Seriously?…”? I have the CPT coaching guide and have read it for myself and Ina clearly states that she should be paid for every student that a CPT teaches. She says, “The more students you coach, the more you pay” and that is a direct quote. So, can you (or perhaps Ina) explain what is being misinterpreted?
That’s an excellent question. I’m not 100% clear on the answer about the perceived policy. That’s why I didn’t clarify to Matt. After answering Matt’s question yesterday I sent a message to Ina asking if she wanted to weigh in on the answer, as I have been a little confused over that one myself.
Here’s my take on how it was taken out of context… Yes, she does indicate a pay-per-student-printout type contribution…with conditions. Actually there were several other things that weren’t taken into consideration. Here’s more of the context: Coaches were told that this ebook was a “first draft” so to speak. That is was thoughts on where she thought she may be going with the program. In it, she is doing what she calls, “brain spill”, where she’s formulating what she’s thinking she’ll do… considering the direction she thinks she wants to go in. In the book, she explains that it’s a companion document for her coaches support group (located on Facebook) and that as the program develops things may change. It is a guidebook, not a policy book. Coaches are instructed and encouraged to use the FB group for questions and answers, updates, idea sharing for program development, and to get new information as the program becomes more settled. Basically – when the book was distributed the program was still in the planning stages and her coaches were helping her determine how to develop it to best meet their needs. The book was not to be considered as final program policy, nor (as she states in the first section of the book) does it serve as a financial contract between the coaches and herself.
Because there’s a statement in the book that reads, “You are paying for the right to reprint the material and use it in your class” clarification was asked for. Within the FB group she clarified (almost immediately after the book came out) that the contribution was asked for ONLY if coaches used her prepared student printouts in their paid-for coaching sessions. If coaches used their own student worksheets, there’s no request for contribution back. She also indicated the asked contribution did not refer to classes where students attended for free (that part is in the book too). She also indicated in the book that she didn’t know how this contribution request would be handled with what she called “level 2” coaches.
In the FB group she has clarified multiple times, that the contribution back to her for coaching individual students was not a requirement. So I think that piece is either still developing? or was cancelled all together? I’m not 100% sure. That’s why I asked Ina if she wanted to clarify. I do not know if she wants to answer business related questions in a public blog. That might be something she keeps in her private FB group for her coaches only.
What I *think* I understand is that it was not a pure “pay-per-student” requirement. It was more like a “freely contribute (if you want to) per-(paying)student-informational-worksheet-handout” type program. Welcomed contributions back based on the right to reprint classroom materials is completely different from required payments based on student count in every class. Does that make sense?
It was taken out of context because the quote did not indicate the included caveats of: 1) it was based on only number of printouts for only paying students, 2) only if her specific handouts were used, 3) only for level one coaches and only if new info on program changes didn’t post out in her private FB coaches group, 4) and there is no legal obligation to make payment to Ina. Without that extra context – people were lead to believe that it was a “pay-per-student” legal obligation policy. End of story. And that wasn’t the end of the story. It was merely a “brain storming” type beginners guide, suggested contribution.
That’s my opinion of things anyway. If Ina corrects me on any thing I may have gotten wrong in my understanding, I’ll clarify the answer correctly with my blog readers.
Thanks Curious Mind for stopping in for a visit. Although it may not clarify the perceived policy (which isn’t actually a policy at all) – I hope the info at least helps people get a better understanding of the context of where the information was pulled from. Although the book quote is correct in syntax and format – without the context – the message being delivered is incorrect.
Cindy you have benefitted from both sides of this art form over the years. I have learned in my business experience not to get in the middle of something by taking sides as it makes it look like that person has something to gain commercially and/or a grudge with someone. Let both sides of the businesses sort it out in terms of who has the right to do what and let your readers enjoy art for the sake of art and its healing qualities. You have your opinion and i have mine. Thank you.
Hello Matt, Thank you for visiting my blog today and for sharing your thoughts as well. I can see where people might think something looks one way when maybe it isn’t that way. That’s actually part of the message I’m delivering in this blog post. So maybe I need to clarify the two areas of possible misconceptions you mentioned.
First, I do not hold a grudge against anyone mentioned in this posting. I have purchased products from all parties I’ve mentioned here. And I contently enjoy using every one of them. No one here has delivered a less than quality product to me. I may very well order more products from each of them in the future if their offerings prove to be of interest to me. I’m not opposed to doing so anyway. I’ve not met nor talked with any of them in person. I have had web-based communication with all of them, in some cases through blog post commenting, others through email, newsletter deliveries, etc. I have not had any sour words with any of them. Other than me being a customer to each of them – I have no financial connections to any of them. To my knowledge no one I spoke of in this blog post has ever insulted me nor caused me harm. What I’m explaining here is that I have no reason to hold a grudge against anyone mentioned in this writing. Sorry if by expressing my opinion on the matters, I lead anyone to believe otherwise.
The second item of interest you brought up was that some people might think a person has something to gain commercially when they chose to voice their opinion on business matters. On a personal note – I am retired and have a comfortable living situation from my pensions, etc. I do not have a need for fluid income, although I do have a few products and services that I charge for on a hobby basis. (And now that I’m typing this, I’m wondering to myself if the only reason I charge is to give a perception of worth. I think today I will ponder on that some more.) Nevertheless if I did have something to gain commercially from this posting – I would not be ashamed to say so. I believe commercial earnings and building wealth for ones self is a worthy cause and not something to be looked down on.
Thanks again for sharing – I appreciate your opinion. Have a great day! ~Cindy
Well written Cindy! Thanks for the time and effort you have put into this matter. You have done Ina and all of us a great service.
Thank you Di for stopping in today. I hope the posting will help people understand that just because there are similarities in pattern art making processes and/or written works – that doesn’t necessarily equate to an infringement against the Zentangle® company’s works. Have a good evening. -Cindy
Dear Cindy,
For the past few days I’ve received numerous emails about my Sacred Doodle body of work, which left me wondering what old article has been reposted on the internet. I was led to your Blog. Mystery solved!
Firstly, I want to thank you for sharing about my work on your blog and lending credibility to the healing nature of art itself, for which there now exists plenty of research supporting art as a healing modality. When I first stumbled into the world of ‘doodling’ (as a paint-by-the-number artist as a kid) while navigating through my medical adventure with breast cancer, I was amazed to discover that by simply letting go of any attachment to result/outcome, I could actually create something of beauty. And the more I doodled, the more intrigued I became. Doodling actually became a profound practice which taught me what trust and faith were all about, well beyond the world of art itself. To this day, doodling continues to guide me as I journey through whatever unexpected events or challenges may arise when least expected. I’m reminded to just stay focused in the here and now — that precious middle space which is the portal to connecting to the wellspring of wisdom we already have within our hearts.
But, I would also like to take this opportunity to clarify a few things with regard to Rick and Maria, of which I’m in awe of the success they’ve achieved over the years with Zentangle.
I began to market my work as early as 1999, with my first workshop held in the UK through Sacred Space Foundation. I returned to the UK for the next 3-4 years. In those early years, I also began to market Sacred Doodles by contacting local and national media, hospitals and the business community. I also wrote and contributed numerous articles to various print publications. My story was featured in Chicken Soup for the Breast Cancer Survivor’s Soul in 2006.
I can’t remember exactly when Rick and Maria contacted me, but we did connect. For me it was refreshing to connect with other ‘doodler’s, especially those open to exploring the world through spiritual study. I can’t remember what path they were on, but mine is based on Hindu teachings. After our conversation, they sent me one of their Zentangle kits. What became apparent to me, was while we shared similar thoughts about the benefits of doodling, our approach to the “how to” was different. Let me try to explain.
There is absolutely no thought of creating anything in particular with Sacred Doodles. While I think the end product of Zentangle doodles are quite beautiful, their process feels more left brain than the way I teach. Sacred Doodles is an incredible spontaneous and simple art form. You don’t have to think about anything other than trusting that you hand will guide you to create the ‘perfect’ design, no matter what ends up on the paper. Here are the simple guidelines:
In one continuous motion, begin and end your doodle outline at the same point, without lifting the pen off the paper. Complete your outline in 5-7 seconds (or the time it takes to take a deep breath in and out). Do NOT worry if the beginning and end point do not touch.
Fill in your doodle with anything that comes to mind — hearts, dots, circles, etc.
Let your imagination guide you as you learn to trust in the creative process. Have fun and don’t worry about “what” you create — just have fun “creating.”
The most important focus in Sacred Doodles is not with “what” you create, but offering you an opportunity to experience the interactions of your mind “while” you create. Did you find yourself lost in the creative process, or worried about what your doodle would look like, or if your doodle is as good as your neighbors? Has your mind wandered outside this ‘Now” moment in time thinking about your next work meeting, the kids, or what to make for dinner? If you found yourself caught up in the trappings of your mind while you doodle, imagine what you do while living your everyday life, especially when you find yourself on a challenging detour.
Don’t let the present moment be merely a stepping stone to the unknown future when you find yourself caught up in all the ‘what if’s’ and ‘if only’s.’ If so, then take a deep breath in and a long breath out, and bring yourself back to the present moment. This is where life is meant to be lived, no matter what else is going on. And, it doesn’t mean you don’t plan for tomorrow. It simply means don’t live for tomorrow at the expense of what today has to offer.
For me, doodling became a profound spiritual practice — an opened-eye meditation, where East meets West, where fear meets faith, and where the unknown becomes the known. It leads to an opening into the sacred space of stillness — to your inner sanctuary. In the long run, the doodles I designed, had actually re-designed me from the inside out.
Every beginning has an ending, which then becomes another beginning. Life is about the journey between these two points. Whatever happens in-between these two points depends on your attitude, perspectives and choices you make. Doodling offered me a life-line for my spirit to rest, recover and regroup — all while I created amazingly beautiful art without having any idea what I was doing!! Not bad for a perfectionist! (I now consider myself a recovering perfectionist!)
Thanks for the opportunity to reassess my Sacred Doodle body of work, which has been on a hiatus for a number of years while I’ve been busy on another project — http://www.SydHoff.org. Reading your blog has inspired me to seriously think about writing another Sacred Doodle book. In the meantime, the Sacred Doodles DVD is available via http://www.SacredDoodles.com.
Warm Regards, Carol Edmonston
Hi Carol, Thank you for stopping in to visit and for sharing more of your story. I’m also glad to hear that you connected with the Zentangle® folks and enjoyed sharing your doodle interests as well as the similarities in your spiritual followings.
Yes, it’s true that your art work as well as Rick and Maria’s has inspired many people both creatively and mindfully. Thank you Carol, for sharing your creative gifts so freely! Your willingness to do that ended up opening a beautiful pathway for so many others to travel on.
If you opt to reingage with your sacred doodle work, I will be interested in seeing where you take it.
Best regards to you as well! ~Cindy
Hi Cindy,
Although I thanked you on my blog post for sharing this information with me, I felt I should thank you here too to let others know how greatly I appreciate your efforts to educate.
If it hadn’t been for you and the ‘UnZen Tangled Thoughts’ site, I wouldn’t know about Carol Ross Edmonston and the true origin of the meditative/mindful drawing I’ve grown to enjoy.
Thanks again.
I’m sending you positive energy and I hope you are having a better day today than you did yesterday 💛
Hi! Nice to see you here. I had fun visiting your site. Have marked it for regular returns as well. I’m sure we’ll be “seeing” each other around the web. Even if only in our little corners of this wide open space.
Thank you kindly for your reply and for your positive energy as well. Today I need it as i’m dealing with an oncoming migraine. Hope I can cut it off at the pass. I hate when those darned things interrupt my day! Ugh. I hope you are well today.
What a wonderful article. ..so well written. During my teaching career (1971-2002) I often would have my students do repetitive drawings after dividing up the page. I knew nothing about meditation at the time but soon realized it was a great way to bring peace to a very enthusiastic group of 9-10 Year olds. My years as a calligrapher also introduced me to the use of ancient and more modern designs. The opinions re Rick and Maria vs Ina echo my own feelings. I had never heard of Carol Edmonston til I read this blog. Rest assured I will be following her closely in the future and invest in her books. I do some teaching of the use of repetitive patterns but never use the word Zentzngle as I’m not “certified”. Thanks for all the research you’ve done on all aspects of this topic…..which unfortunately has become contentions. Happy drawing and peace to one and all.Namaste
Oh how I wish I had learned calligraphy. Maybe sometime or another I’ll dedicate myself to learning it. It’s so pretty and seems like it would be as therapeutic to me as line weaving is. Peace to you as well, Jeanne. ~Cindy
Hi, Cindy! Just wanted to thank you for all the work you put into writing this article. I know you are aware that I shared it on Pattern-Collections and I also shared it to my FB page, Tricia’s Tangled Art Studio. I had already done my research and read the patent application and the denials.
Hadn’t planned on learning about patent law, trademarks, and copyrights but it is always good to continue educating one’s self.
You were able to put into words, in a very precise, logical manner, the conclusions at which I also arrived.
It’s great that such an ancient form of art continues today and is enjoyed by so many regardless of the method they follow. It’s just sad that some people are so unaccepting of different methods and ideas. I enjoy being part of an artistic community that so readily shares their art, ideas, techniques, and joy, so openly and freely with the community. Tangle on my cyber friend.
Hi Tricia, Glad you stopped in today. Thank you also for sharing the article. You’re much better at maneuvering around FB than I am. I did my research on the patent thing a few years back, primarily because I wanted to teach mindful patterning and I wasn’t sure what was spelled out in their patent application. Needed to make sure I didn’t step on any toes there. I have a little bit of higher-level knowledge in that area from a friend who keeps me educated on such things. 😀 You tangle on too. Have a great weekend!
Thank you for such an informative article! Glad you saved the thousands of dollars to become “trained” by Rick & Maria!
I have thought many times of teaching doodled drawing, but held back as I wasn’t trained. Maybe now I’ll take the leap & go ahead & teach others to have fun, relax, doodle & enjoy! It’s all in the journey. 😊👍🏼👍🏼💜👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
hi Cindy, a good and well illustrated article; You sure did your resurch. I already shared my thoughts on this on the forums. I keep saying: it is a big word and there is room for all methods concerning repeat pattern drawing. No need to bully or attack others who try to make a living from their art. I take what i can find online (made public) and draw with tools and paper i can afford. Let’s be zen and doodle or tangle or draw repeat pattern along.
Hello! Thanks for dropping in. I agree with you, there’s never a need to bully or attack. Even if someone steps over a line, there’s always a civil way to correct errors. Have a great day! Cheers, ~Cindy
wow. So glad you took the time to put this into writing. I am love zentangling, but had no idea where it started. Love learning new things as well as being made aware of how people can surely manipulate what others have put into being. Thank you for the heads up.
Hi Karen, Thanks for popping on in for a bit. I like learning new things too. Keeps my wee brain from shriveling up. LOL Have a great weekend.
Cindy, I am so delighted to read your post. I am a loyal follower of Ina & am immersing myself in her teaching technique. Yes, Rick & Maria are very business savvy & my hat goes off to them, but Ina, bless her heart, has made the training available to those of us who can’t afford to go jetting off to a seminar & pay big bucks to do so. Thank you for using your platform to take up her cause & to make people aware of Carol, also. I did not know about Carol but, somehow, I instinctively knew that Rick & Maria didn’t invent anything. After all, I was making these same marks all over my notebook while “meditating” about my boyfriend, in my 9th grade US History class….and & I’m now age 76! So this art form has been around for a very long time.
Hi Linda, Thank you for stopping by. I’m like you – lots of doodles on my notebooks too all those years ago… and still today as well. 😀
I love your comments! I too was doodling in my notebook in school, talking on the phone, etc. 😂😂😂. So glad cindy took the time to research this information for us. Rick & Maria’s story was a good one. I had know idea about Carol! Kudos to get & Ina. 💜💜👍🏼😂
Thanks for the blog. I have always been suspicious about the way they represent themselves, especially Rick. His “background” with the flutes and monks and such sound phony. And for years he was always the one doing the talking, interrupting Maria and pushing himself to the front. Then reading blogs from people who said they were told to bring their journals, etc. with them when they went to get certified and noticed that later it showed up on Zentangle as if it was new from them, I was not surprised. I don’t buy my supplies from them. I buy blank coasters and pens elsewhere. I’m not an artist, I just like to draw for my own pleasure.
Hi Susie. Thank you for visiting my blog. I hope you continue to enjoy your patterning artwork. I don’t buy my supplies from the Zentangle® company either. Mainly because I can get quality art supplies locally and I have the tools to die cut my “tiles” if I want to. Although I typically use larger substrate to create my work. 😀 Have a great day!
Hi Cindy,
Maria and I learned about Carol Edmonston’s Sacred Doodles after we developed the Zentangle Method. We came across her work after we had filed a patent application for the Zentangle Method. When we saw her work, we realized the similarities and we informed the patent office of Sacred Doodles.
If you have any questions, you can reach us through the contact page on zentangle.com.
(https://zentangle.com/pages/contact)
With best regards,
Rick (and Maria)
Hi Rick, Thanks for stopping in. I knew that you were aware of Carols work. For years, I’ve kept tabs on your patent application information. So I’ve seen the rebuttals you’ve sent through the years.
I’m curious as to why you still lead people to believe you invented the process, when you’ve known since 2006 or so, that you weren’t the first to do so. I do understand that your process is different from Carols…. slightly. But the face of it is pretty much the same. I think you do yourselves no favors by deceiving the public. But of course that is your option.
I hope your patent never gets approved, not out of meanness, but because it’s not a novel invention. Patent licenses should be reserved for true inventions. Nevertheless, I do wish you well in your other business endeavors.
Sadly you never mentioned that in the personal attack against me??? Maybe one day you will understand the difference between meditative drawing and CPT! Please take the time to my comment on your own blog or do check your email!
I am so glad to have learned this. I’m going to look up both artists Carol and Ina and no longer mention Rick and Maria as the investors when I teach.
It always rubbed me the wrong way how possessive they were when doodle drawing is just meant to be shared.
Thanks Cindy.
Hi Lori! Good to see you in this neck of the woods. Yes – please do that bit of research. I understand people wanting to protect their businesses. But I wish they did it with style instead of in a bullying manner. Press on with your teaching. Best Regards, ~Cindy
I don’t teach, but I have felt the same way about mentioning them or the method when I post about my art, for some time now. I call what I create meditative or mindful doodling and line drawing; or sometimes apply the tags zendoodle(s) or zenart when I post on Instagram.
I don’t suppose anyone can get too upset about those labels 🙂
Whew! At first glance I was reluctant to read so many….words 😉! I’m glad I did. It was formatted very nicely btw.
When “Zentangle” first came out their marketing methods left no stone unturned. Therefore I found myself enraptured with it. Upon investigation and discovering the tuition they were charging I was a bit turned off. It felt like they took the “for profit” to great lengths!
It was at that point I took their teachings as whatever I could get for free. I “collected” many tangles and ended up not really doing much with it in the way they “intended”.
I think all in all it was their energy that didn’t sit right with me. To be such a “zen” person on the one hand, then on the other hand putting such an emphasis on materialism felt conflicting.
Anyway, I never pursued any further research from that point on. I’m very thankful for all the information you’ve provided and nicely presented.
Hello Lauri. Thank you for visiting my blog today. You’re right – It’s a lot more words than I usually put in my postings. LOL I’m glad you pressed on and read through it though. Makes me think maybe my efforts were worth it. 😀 Have a great day…. maybe draw a little?! ~Cindy
The voice of reason. Thank you, Cindy!
Hi Chrissie. Thanks for visiting my little corner of the web today!
Wow! Thanks for this Cindy! This is the 3rd person I’ve read about ! Nadia Russ (who did NeoPopRealist – extremely similar to Zentangle) supposedly started it back in I think 1989,
and recently the ‘feud’ with Ina and now Carol! Just Wow!
Makes one wonder doesn’t it?
Hi Debbie…. yes, there are things in the zen-winds that make me wonder too! 😀 Thanks for visiting my blog today! Have a good weekend!